Ibarretxe Q&A

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt, here you have Basque president Juan Jose Ibarretxe defending his proposal at ePolitix:

Juan Jose Ibarretxe, President Basque Country

Thursday 5th December 2002 at 00:00

Question: Madrid believes the Ibarretxe plan follows ETA, but on the other hand ETA says you are following Madrid's way? Why the confusion?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Well, obviously things have to be either black or white, they cannot be black and white at the same time. The proposal I have made is an open one, it's a proposal that has a totally legal and democratic basis to it. It's a proposal that aims not to break away from the Spanish state but to co-exist with the Spanish state, and it is a proposal that aims to get the Basque people to be able to freely decide how they want to co-exist with the Spanish state and within Europe.

Question: Critics say why don't you condemn and isolate the terrorists and their supporters?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: It is grossly unfair to say that Basque institutions need to condemn terrorism. We have always condemned it. We categorically condemn ETA's terrorism, amongst other reasons because Basque institutions have always condemned all kinds of violence. We have condemned all the dictatorships that have existed in the Spanish state. Firstly, Primo de Rivera's dictatorship, then Franco's dictatorship, and now we condemn ETA's dictatorship. We have always done so and we always will do. And it is a terrible mistake to try to get across to the world the idea that Basque people and Basque institutions don't condemn violence, especially ETA's terrorism. Amongst other reasons, because this gives the wrong picture of the Basque people. The Basques are not a violent people. They are a peaceful and hard working people. We realise that all ideas, whether you agree with them or not, as long as they are defended democratically, are valid. Basque society is not asking Batasuna to give up their ideas or to forget them. What we demand from Batasuna and all other political parties is that all ideas be defended peacefully and democratically. There is no society that is so categorically against violence as Basque society. No institution anywhere in the world has ever been so utterly against and has condemned so strongly ETA as has Basque society and its institutions.

Question: Since September 11 Aznar wants Basque terrorism to be dealt with in the same way as international terrorism. What do you think of that?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Obviously terrorism is extraordinarily negative wherever it occurs in the world. You simply cannot kill. There is absolutely no justification for killing. You cannot kill to defend any ideal. The 21st century is not a century in which ideas or projects are defended through killing. Referring specifically to ETA's violence and ETA's terrorism, obviously action has to be taken. We have to take steps using police measures and legal tools. We attach a great deal of importance to European policing tools and European legal tools to help us in the fight against ETA's terrorism. Nevertheless, it is vital that political problems be given a political solution. And obviously between the Basque country and Spain in addition to the absurd, inhumane, barbaric violence we have to eradicate, a political problem still remains. We have got to find a political solution, a political agreement between the Basque country and Spain, and we have to do that democratically. We have to do that based on the decisions the Basque people take and to do so I have proposed and I have put on the table this new political agreement to eradicate ETA's violence once and for all and to try and reach some kind of agreement so that the Basque Country and Spain can co-exist in mutual respect.

Question: In your plan you talk about a referendum which will decide if the Basque people want to be an associated state inside Spain. What's the difference between that and full independence?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Firstly I want to clarify to you that in my proposal I don't propose that the Basque country be a 'state' that is associated to Spain - that is not part of the proposal, amongst other reasons because really the proposal that I have made and the proposal that I hope should be openly debated is by no means based on 19th or even 20th century ideas, but rather it's based on 21st century ideas and concepts. And these concepts of the 21st century are not independence but 'interdependence'. We don't talk about 'independence' we talk about 'interdependence' in the 21st century, we don't talk about absolute sovereignty in the 21st century but rather shared sovereignty. There have been people who have tried to distort the proposal, especially those in Spanish government and they have used the media, and especially the international media, to try to relate my proposal to some kind of 'state' that would be freely associated to the Spanish state. But that's not it. What I've proposed is that there be an agreement, an agreement of free association of the Basque country with the Spanish state. What I have proposed is not to break away from the Spanish state but rather to co-exist with the Spanish state, however obviously based on the decision that the Basque people take.

Question: And to coexist how would you define boundaries of financial autonomy?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Just as they are defined today in Europe. Obviously, when you talk about economic policies, to an increasing level these are in the hands of European Community institutions. In fact, tax policy (within some limits of harmonisation) is really the only thing that is left in the hands of European Union member states. So the only possibility left is to set taxation levels and to collect these taxes. But, this is something that Basque institutions are already doing today as a result of the economic agreement that we already have. You may know that Basque institutions use this economic agreement and have very far-reaching competencies and powers to actually set our taxes and also to collect all those taxes the Basque people pay. So where do I see a scenario at an economic and financial level? Well obviously within those political, legal and financial tools we are all building together in the European Union.

Question: Basque business organisations said that if you go on with your plans, many of them and their enterprises will leave the Basque country. What is your message to them?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Firstly, I should say that amongst the Basque business community there are many different points of view. And moreover for me it is tremendously satisfying, as President of the Basque Community and representative of Basque society that 7 out of 10 Basques are interested that my proposal make progress.

The Basque people, Basque entrepreneurs and the Basque business community have thought a great deal about all of this. What would our country be like without ETA's violence? We think about that a lot, and there is not one single business person in the Basque country who doubts that a violence-free Basque country, free of the violence of ETA, that a Basque country with some sort of political agreement - a strong and sound political agreement that would normalise the political relationships between the Basque Country and Spain, would set an unbeatable political and economic scenario.

This is something that is debated a great deal in the media, but there is not one single person in the Basque country, not one man or woman who doubts that a violence-free Basque country with political agreements would be unbeatable and would be far better from an economic and social point of view than the society we are in today. It is important that you know that Basque businessmen and women - what they are saying today is "we've got and excellent standard of living, and all we need is peace. And we have to do something to obtain peace, we cannot carry on as we are today". And that is why they appreciate the proposal that I have made and realise that it is really an honest proposal to make progress and to eradicate violence from our lives and set some sort of framework in which economic growth and social balance are possible.

Question: Madrid supported a referendum with Gibraltar. How confident are you that they will accept a referendum with the Basque country?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: I have no doubts about the respect Madrid has for democracy. I am sure that it will be the Basque people who will finally decide what they want to be. I find it unimaginable to think that the Basque Country will be something other than what the Basque people want. I find that difficult to understand as I find it impossible to understand that Scotland would be something different to what the Scottish people want. Or in other countries or other nations and regions in the world. But I will go further than that. In recent years in Madrid people have been saying time and time again "you Basque people, why don't you reach some kind of an agreement" - so I do not think there will be any problem on that front if we Basque people are able to reach an agreement and if Basque society ratifies a determined project with specific ideas. This would be naturally totally accepted because this is exercising democracy.

Question: Do you detect that Spanish people who see a referendum in Gibraltar, see that there is a discrepancy that Basque people aren't allowed a referendum?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Firstly, Basque society is going to decide where its own future lies. I have no doubt about that. I think that in the 21st century, nobody can oppose the consultation of a people when it is their future which is at stake. Because if people do not accept that, then we really would have a big problem because that would mean that democratic rules weren't being accepted nor was the right to decide one's own future. I think that respect for democracy is one of the main principals upon which we have to build the European space and all those countries that form a part of the European space in the 21st century.

The 21st century is not a century in which wishes are imposed, it is a century in which there is free association and free inclusion. A few years ago and unfortunately this normally happened in the case of women - women had to live alongside their husbands in spite of the fact that they were being maltreated. But fortunately those times have past. In fact normally people's children don't stay at home if they don't share the project of their parents. The 21st century isn't a century in which people are able to impose their ideas, it is a century based on free association and that is what I am proposing on behalf of the Basque government.

Question: A lot of times Spanish politicians have compared the conflicts in Northern Ireland with the Basque country. One key feature of the Ulster peace process was the decision to free convicted paramilitaries from prison. Would you like to see this happen in Spain?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Firstly, I ought to say that sometimes we are tempted -through pure good will and the wish to fix things- to try to apply magic recipes - because that is what bad economists and bad politicians have done throughout history. They have taken a magic recipe from a different place and from a different time and tried to transfer that to one's own situation and country at a different time. I am convinced that we are going to have to apply our own model to solve our own problems. And I think that as things stand today what is really important when we talk about ETA's violence and when we talk about the possibility of achieving a political agreement is to act using the tools and rule of law for us - that is police and legal measures, but above all we need political debate. For it will be political debate that will finish off ETA's violence. It is going to be Basque society that is going to finally wipe ETA out of our lives. Now it's the time for solutions and for political debate. I think that political debate on the proposal that I have put on the table, and any other proposal that somebody may want to put forward is what really can eradicate violence once and for all.

Question: There are no magic recipes from elsewhere but are there any lessons to be learned from the Northern Ireland peace process?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Of course. There is one excellent recipe for solving all the problems around the world and that is acceptance of dialogue as the key tool to solving our problems. The main tool, and weapon for the 21st century shouldn't be resorting to war to solve problems, it should be dialogue. Dialogue is the true key element that is going to help us solve problems and conflicts in the 21st century. And really, the process in Northern Ireland, if there is something we can learn from it, it is precisely the road of dialogue, the advancement of communication is the main starting point to actually make progress and reach solutions.

Question: What kind of relationship or representation does the Basque government want to have in the EU in the 21st century?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: This is something that we are currently debating. In fact it is being debated in the whole of the EU. What we want is for different nationalities -in our case the Basque nationality- to have a presence and a role in the European constitutional process. In this regard, the first thing that I ought to say is that there is nothing new to be invented, there are federal countries within Europe that have already resolved the means of representation before institutions at a European level. In fact, Germany and Austria have already made constitutional modifications, as has Belgium, so this can happen.

So we are not asking for the Basque country anything that isn't already happening in other countries and other nations in Europe. Last week, 74 constitutional regions met together in Florence - stateless nations. And there we jointly asked for (and by the way we represent 56 per cent of the European population) the Inter-Governmental Conference which will be opening in the year 2004 and which is going to have to draw a draught European constitution, to consider within its treaty, within its own constitution some sort of special status for nations and regions that have legislative powers but aren't states within Europe. Specifically, in first place this status should recognise legislative regions' right to become electoral constituencies or electoral districts when holding elections to Europe. Secondly, according to Article 203 of the Treaty we could have, without any problem - and we should have, a presence in the European Council of Ministers meetings. This already does happen in some nations and regions around Europe. And thirdly, we should be able to go to the European Constitutional Court to defend our own competencies and powers. What I am proposing in the case of the Basque country is fortunately already solved in other pluri-national states or federal states around Europe.

Question: So what is your message to EU leaders who say that the EU shouldn't be the place to resolve these nationalist issues within member states - it is a matter for the member state to sort out themselves?

Juan Jose Ibarretxe: Our proposal for this agreement is made to the Spanish state and we propose to the Spanish state an agreement for co-existence. And I am especially interested to get across not just to EU leaders but the different people that live throughout Europe like us, the Basque people, that what we want is just to co-exist because that is what we want to do and that is because that is what we have decided to do as Basque people within the Spanish state and the Spanish state in Europe. And that's all we want. We are a people with its own personality and identity, and we want to live and we want to have this relationship of affection with the Spanish state and with Europe. We want to share our future in Europe. And all we want is for people to respect what we are - we are Basque people. We are a small people within Europe, with its own culture, with its own language, the oldest language in Europe.

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